Confessing Sin does not Save us (4 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/28/2001 11:03 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 45)  
 
  47.1  
 
I was listening to a Christian talk radio show a couple of days ago. A caller called in and said that he was having a hard time being a Christian because he felt that he could not accurately and adequately confess each of his sins. I thought that he raised a very good question. Are we saved by confessing our sin? And the answer is no. We do not become a Christian because we have confessed our sin, many people and religions throughout the world confess their faults, mistakes, shortcomings, and their sins; and yet they are not Christians. We become a Christian by Confessing Jesus. It is Faith - Trust in Jesus and Jesus alone that makes one a Christian. We can never atone for our own sins that is why it was necessary for Jesus to go to the cross Himself for our sins. Jesus paid the full penalty for All sin. The penalty of sin is death, Jesus paid the penalty by His death on the cross. This is why people physically die, because we people possess sin in our bodies. But Jesus also resurrected from death to give us new Resurrected life in His resurrection life. We obtain resurrection life in Jesus by Confessing Jesus as our Living Lord and Savior.
Isnt it nice to Know that one continuing confession the Life of Jesus Saves us for all eternity, by entering us into the eternal resurrection life of Jesus.

Confession
Homologomenos (3670) Homou - same, place or time, together; Logos - words, reason, thoughts spoken
Verses - Dan 9:20 Rom 10:9,10 14:11 1Tim 6:13 1John 1:9 4:2,3 Rev 3:5
First Use: Leviticus 5:5 And it shall be, when he is guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing.

Luke 12:8 Also I (Jesus) say unto you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1John 4:1,2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

Confession is to same thoughts, or same reason, same speak. Confession is to align our thoughts with the thoughts of God. Gods thoughts are that He loves us. We are to confess Gods love for us.

Psalm 139:17,18 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 

Confession means to align our thoughts with the thoughts of God. The word confession or similar words are used approximately 21 times in the New Testament, and in only two uses is it referring to confessing sin, James 5:16 and 1John 1:9. The other 19 times confession is referring to confessing Jesus. This is an important point; the night Jesus was betrayed both Judas and Peter sinned and both Judas and Peter confessed their sin. Matthew 27:3-5 Then Judas, which had betrayed Him (Jesus), when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed and went and hanged himself. Only Peter went on to confess Jesus. Just like with Judas, it does us no good to examine or confess our sin without also confessing Jesus, the remedy from our sin.

Excerpt from the Book
Basic Christian: Theology
By David A. Brown






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    5/28/2001 12:21 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 45)  
 
  47.2 in reply to 47.1  
 
Good words David... 
Here is some words from Miles Stanford (The Complete Green Letters) that I think are excellent: 

"...As we grow, we learn to stand in our standing of grace, abiding in the risen Lord Jesus, and walking in the light of the Father's presence and fellowship. We appreciate the fact of our position as we experience failures in fighting against sin. We express our growing hatred of self by freely confessing sins, which amounts to judging ourselves for submitting to indwelling sin. We admit our responsibility for walking (or drifting) beyond the realm of light, into the shadows of sin and self. "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1Cor.11:31,32) 

Standing in the light, we are not only aware that our sins have been cleared away by the blood, but we realize that we as sinners have also been put away by the death of the cross. We count ourselves to have died to sin, and now to be alive as new creations in Christ Jesus. As such, we confess our sins as they are revealed in the light, and we are thereby made free from self-occupation - free to be fully occupied in fellowship with the Father and the Son. 

To turn from the darkness and death of self to the light and life of Christ is not to give up the fight and give in to sin. Not at all! It is fighting "the good fight of FAITH" (1Tim.6:12), it is entering into the benefits of the fact that the fight has already been fought and won for us by Another. This translation from bondage and defeat to freedom and victory is the faith-move from condition to position. "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his" (Heb.4:10)." 

wendy 






 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    5/30/2001 9:50 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 45)  
 
  47.3 in reply to 47.1  
 
If we had to confess each and every sin to maintain our salvation we would be there all day, everyday. I am so glad that my salvation is based on what Jesus did, past tense, for me. 
Thank you Jesus for paying my debt! 

Ruth


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  From:  BURRTON   6/4/2001 1:49 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 45)  
 
  47.4 in reply to 47.1  
 
Now even confessing sin does not save us? 
What next? 
Is ANYONE good, is anyone decent, can anything 
satisfy this God? 
David, you are scary, we might all simply give up 
if nothing we do, according to you, can save us 
from the wrath of this God. 
honestly, would a God, an all-knowing, perfect being, use 
all these threats and fear tactics to make his presense 
known? He would not. These were man-made, clear and simple. 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/4/2001 2:35 pm  
To:  BURRTON   (5 of 45)  
 
  47.5 in reply to 47.4  
 
Yeeeee hawwwww...Thats what I'm talkin 'bout! The man is a Self Proclaimed Prophet....HE CALLS the Shots and makes the rules as he goes along....tsk tsk tsk....

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

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  From:  Hangin n there (juzmeagain)   6/4/2001 10:37 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (6 of 45)  
 
  47.6 in reply to 47.3  
 
Confessing our sins is only a part of it. Putting out faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and accetping that He bled and died on the cross for our sins. Beleiveing that He died and rose again. Anything else is moot. Just confessing our sins is no better than putting a pink ribbon on a pig and saying its a Poodle. It just doestn work that way. IM glad that i beleive in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.IM glad that I have ONE GOD and only ONE GOD!!! That I serve no other masters but Him. 



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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/5/2001 8:37 am  
To:  Hangin n there (juzmeagain)   (7 of 45)  
 
  47.7 in reply to 47.6  
 
But you do believe in Majikal beings...A flying horse/Unicorn....I am being ostracised for believing in Majikal things.....

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


 
 
  
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  From:  Hangin n there (juzmeagain)   6/5/2001 12:47 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (8 of 45)  
 
  47.8 in reply to 47.7  
 
NOpe, im sorry I dont beleive in them at all. BUt I do have a mentally ill person that feels good when he sees one. He doesnt know the difference and thinks they are pretty. So I keep it ass my signature so that when I post on the forum page and he sees it,he gets happy. See he is only a toddler in mind,even though he is actually grown up physically,so he doesnt reaoize they are mystical and wrong to beleive in. I dont beleive there are any flying horses or even flying witches on broomsticks for that matter. But I do beleive there is only one God and there is a very real Satan. And some day, all those that dont beleive in Jesus Christ WILL bow down to Him whether they beleive in Him or not. And they Will see that thee is a very REAL satan and they will be his guest for eternity as well. Now, with all that said, I do think my original response was to someone else. I dont talk to witches or warlocks or anything like that normally. But I sure dont mind telling you that beleif in magical rocks and incense and herbal potions and all that hocus pocus junk is a bunch of bunk. OH well, IM sure IM jsut talking to be talking here at you.



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  From:  louderpleez1   6/5/2001 1:30 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (9 of 45)  
 
  47.9 in reply to 47.1  
 
REPENT!

http://headbangersue.knac.com PURE ROCK PATROL 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/5/2001 3:00 pm  
To:  Hangin n there (juzmeagain)   (10 of 45)  
 
  47.10 in reply to 47.8  
 
I would not for ANY thing in Jesus's whole world take the joy of Mystical Pretties from your friend who loves them.... And I didnt say anything hateful or mean to you...so why the attack... Witches dont fly and the brooms are only a symbol of sweeping away symbolic bad things.... You are so mistaken about me...but I am Christian enough not to attack you....Too sad that your Christianity doesn't reach as far... Blessed be to thee and thine..... MS

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


 
 
  
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  From:  Hangin n there (juzmeagain)   6/5/2001 7:23 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (11 of 45)  
 
  47.11 in reply to 47.10  
 
I havent attacked you, nor will I. I think I spoke in a pretty downtoned way. Im sorry you took it that way. And thats all IM gonna say about that.



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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/5/2001 9:33 pm  
To:  Hangin n there (juzmeagain)   (12 of 45)  
 
  47.12 in reply to 47.11  
 
I truly, with all my heart hope that your friend who loves to see the Majikal pretties has a lovely and loving day, every day Raven.....Peace to thee....MS

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


 
 
  
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  From:  wknight001   6/19/2001 9:30 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (13 of 45)  
 
  47.13 in reply to 47.1  
 
If you have holy orders and a priesthood, then the power to hear Confessions is in them. The reason for confession of grave sins is partly psychological, if you do not face them now and repent them before God and His People, you face them all at once upon death. 
The telling passage is Jn 20:22-23 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/19/2001 9:59 am  
To:  wknight001   (14 of 45)  
 
  47.14 in reply to 47.13  
 
Hi Jeffery,
Good Post!

Confessing sin does Educate and Heal us in that we are acknowleging wrongdoing and turning from it and we are also apologizing to God because all sin is against God.

Since all sin is against God, only God can ultimately forgive sin. God forgives sin when we Confess Jesus as our Savior from our sin.

You quoted a very Excellent verse:

*This event occurred on Resurrection day at evening time.
John 20:22-23 And when He (Jesus) had said this, He breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

To Receive the Holy Spirit from Jesus is to Become a Christian. This happens after a person acknowledges the Death and Resurrection of Jesus.

By acknowleging the Death of Jesus for our own personal sins and the Resurrecting of Jesus for our own personal Salvation, our sins are forgiven and we become a Child of God. This is the Message of the Church!

Many people post on this site that we Christians have no right to call others Sinners. But in actuality we have every right and it is our duty as we are told by Jesus to do so. When someone Denies the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus we have to remind them that they are in sin, we cannot give False hope. But when People do acknowledge the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus we are Required to Confirm that their sins are forgiven and that they are a child of God.

God Bless You,
David






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/19/2001 2:24 pm  
To:  ALL   (15 of 45)  
 
  47.15 in reply to 47.10  
 
Well, all of you seem to have a good point, I agree with David, in 1 Chronicles 7:14, God said if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray and seek My face, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 
What really saves us is our humbleness and willingness to come to Jesus and ask for forgiveness, to ask Him to save us from our sin. We can not go to God and seek His face if we're not humble, if we do, then its not out of faith, it's out of an attitude of just saying because no one's gonna get off my back if I don't. God said if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that He has raised Him from the dead, then you shall be saved. It said nothing about confessing our sins and we will be saved, all we have to do is confess Jesus. 

Jesus said He comes to condemn the world of their sin because they dont' believe, if you don't believe in God then you are already sinning, all you have to do is confess Jesus and believe in your heart, and you will be saved. 

I don't think you have to confess your sin to be saved, cause the ones who already are saved also sin. Donnie McClurkin, I'm not sure if any of you heard of him, but he has a song called We Fall Down, even saints of God fall down, but, as he says, we get back up again. When we sin, we're not un-saved, then have to confess our sin to be saved again...if we have to confess our sin just to be saved, then there would be a lot of christians going from un-saved to save to un-saved again and back to saved. Once you confess Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, then that's it, you're saved, and there's no way you can all of a sudden not believe any more, unless you didn't beleive in your heart in the first place, but only by what you heard or because someone told you to, that's not gonna work. You have to know Him for yourself, no one can know Him for you and no one can believe for you cause we all gonna give an account for our actions...God is not gonna question me on why you didn't believe, He's only gonna question me on why I didn't minister to you when I should have or was told to, and He's not gonna have you answer a bunch of questions about why I didn't tell you the truth about His word, He's only gonna have you answer why you didn't believe the truth of His word that I was telling you. 

God bless.
 
  
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/19/2001 9:25 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (16 of 45)  
 
  47.16 in reply to 47.15  
 
The bible refers to confessing your sins to GOD or to the one you harmed. 
Confession, as used by modern religeons, was invented by Irish Monks as a way of keeping a finger on how things were going just prior to the onset of inquisitions. [ we Irish tend to be a nosey lot don't we?] 

Most inquisitions, although claimed to be a routing out of the heritic by those doing them, were more a form of gaining political control of communities and property. 

By the end of the "witch" times, there were whole villages where NOT ONE SINGLE FEMALE WAS LEFT ALIVE! Most of those women slain were midwives and women with the knowledge of using herbs as medicines to cure illnesses. This was at the same time that men decided they were the only ones who should be able to cure illness, most of these men being priests and prelates in the "true church" of that time. 




Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


Common Scents Perfumes

 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/20/2001 11:21 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (17 of 45)  
 
  47.17 in reply to 47.1  
 
Dear David, 
You are correct in saying that we do become Christian not by confessing our sins. What you do not realize is that their are Christians in hell for prociesly not confessing their sins. One cannot be saved and living in sin. 

1 Jn 5:16 " If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. ..." His use of the term brother denotes a fellow Christian.Sin not unto death are those sins of our condition. Those lapse in will in which we sin. Catholics call these veinal sins. These are the sins that purgatory is all about. 

John goes on in 16 to say that there is a sin unto death, wich Catholcis call Mortal (latin for death). This is where the person actually turns his back on God and basicly says I will do it and I don't care what happens to me. These are the sins that will send, not only Christians, but who ever to hell. 

I'm sure that this will ruffle some feathers, but it is imparitive that we confess our sins. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/20/2001 11:42 am  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (18 of 45)  
 
  47.18 in reply to 47.16  
 
Dear Rowan, 
Not so. Christ told his Apostles in Jn 20:23 those sins that you forgive are forgiven, those that you hold will be held. It was his Priests that he gave the power to forgive or hold sins. Don't get me wrong, it is ok to go directly to Christ, but the problem remains what if the sin has to be held, how would you know. Confession to priests goes back all the way to Penticost. 

Again not so. The Catholic Church did not get any property. In the Secular inquisitions all the Church did was to determine guilt or inocents. If guilty they were offered assileme if the repented of their heresy. IF not, the secular inquisition, the guilty party would be handed over to the state and the state would decided the sentence. The State then would get the property. That is all under the bridge because either the person was inocent or guilty. The biggest majority of guilty cases were given penance of some sort. In the ecclesial inquisition the Church pernounced sentence. There were very few, if any death penelties in these cases. You must remember that the Heretics were calling for the destruction of the Catholci Church and they were trying to do this by creating civil unrest. They held tha the Pope was the Anti-Christ. What do you think their view of the Catholic King was? As you can imagine the Catholic Kings were more than happy to put these people to death because they woere causing rebellion in their kindoms. 

Witches are not heretics. They were not rounded up for the inquisition. Those who were rounded up were Catholics who were teaching heredical teachings to the ignorant peasant (couldn't read) and labeling it as Catholic. Those who were put to death were truely wolves in sheeps clothing. You will have to look towards the Protestants for witch trials. That isn't to say that a goup of Catholics did not get together to burn a witch or two, but then, even if it was lead by a priest, it was done without the Vatican approval. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  wknight001   6/20/2001 6:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 45)  
 
  47.19 in reply to 47.14  
 
Actually, in this case, I believe it is more of a 'some are called to be prophets, others, etc.' The gifts of the Holy Spirit are many, and some gifts are for some, others, for others, there are many parts to the body, all serving different functions. 
Very nice reply. Thanks. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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   From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/20/2001 6:46 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (20 of 45)  
 
  47.20 in reply to 47.18  
 
First off, the inquisition was political as well as Theological and many were tortured so their neighbors, the "Crown", or other nobles as well as the church in some areas/nations could gain ownership of lands, titles, and other properties. It was also used as a tool for revenge in many instances. No matter how you define it, it was a serious tool for controlling the masses wasn't it? 
Secondly, what I said about confession as it is defined by most [not all] modern churches, was developed by 16th century monks in Ireland. Prior to this, if you sinned against another or GOD, you confessed to whom you wronged or if you chose to, your priest. It became a requirement" in the Catholic church after the Irish Monks found it so convenient a way to control the masses and in those days, if you weren't Catholic, you were NOT a Christian. [It also probably helped to relieve boredom is another but speculated theory; this part was never proven.] 

As for the witches, I placed that under another heading called "the Burning times"? Some of this occured durring the inquisition and it continued much longer than the inquisition lasted. 

The point was........... 

An awful lot of stupid things are done in the name of religeon. But then, humans are not always a sensible are they? And many of those perpetrating these "things" were purportedly "Good Christians". Christianity however, is not the only religeon which has done horrific things in the name of GOD. Most, not all, of them have. 


Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


Common Scents Perfumes

 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/20/2001 8:34 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (21 of 45)  
 
  47.21 in reply to 47.17  
 
By confessing Jesus we as individuals are Acknowlegeing our Sin and our need for Jesus our Savior from sin. There is no need to confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior unless you acknowlege that you need one. 
Some people say that the Church is full of hypocrits, Not So, the Church is full of people who confess that they are inadiquate and in need of Jesus the Savior. 

Every Christian has Dialogue with God! This is what being a Christian child of God is, it is for God to hear us when we speak and for us to hear God when He speaks. Christians Have a relationship whith God! Part of the Christian relationship with God is to ask foregivness from God when we sin. Christians do not get nor do we need foregiveness from priets Our relationship is with God!




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 9:19 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 45)  
 
  47.22 in reply to 47.21  
 
I've got a quick question. 
Lets say that someone commits a murder. Now, this person gets on their knees, prays and asks God for forgiveness. Does God forgive him although he's done a reprehensible act that neither society nor the victim's family can forgive? 

If God forgives him the first time and he kills a second person will God forgive him a again? What if he truly believes in God and prays for forgiveness the same way he did the first time? What if the murder was done "in the name of God" in the first place? 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 10:25 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (23 of 45)  
 
  47.23 in reply to 47.22  
 
Christianity is not about right and wrong actions of the individual. 
Christianity is Spiritual Life and Death! 

To confess Jesus is to become Born Again Spiritually Alive A New Creation a child of God. 

If a Christian did murder someone they are still a Christian just happen to be a Christian that murdered. Because the Blood of Jesus cleanses a person from Every Sin. There is no sin past present or future that is too ugly for the blood of Jesus. If you have Jesus you have forgiveness of all Sin. 

*If someone does murder, of course there is the real Possibility that they are not a Christian. As the Bible says not everyone who calls Jesus Lord is His Child. And this verse is spoken about the people whos actions deny Jesus. 

Consider the opposite, some person Thinks they are righteous, they have never murdered with their own hands. Everything they do they believe to be Just, but this person will Absolutely end up in hell. Because they do not have the cleansing blood of Jesus to cover their sins. Everyone is a sinner. Those who think they dont sin are just kidding themselves. 

Because Christianity is a New Birth and a new Creation it is a package deal either you are a Christian and All sins are forgiven including murder, or you are a non-Christian and Every sin remains. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 10:52 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 45)  
 
  47.24 in reply to 47.23  
 
So, in other words, a man who has lived a good life, been kind to his fellow man, raised his children well, worked hard and taken care of his wife will still go to Hell for being an Buddhist? On the same note, a Crusader who slaughtered a thousand in the name of God will gain entrance into Heaven just for honestly accepting Jesus as his savior and praying for forgiveness? 
It just doesn't seem right to me that a good God would let such a thing happen. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 11:09 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (25 of 45)  
 
  47.25 in reply to 47.24  
 
That is why I keep trying to Make the point that Christianity is not about Good and Bad behavior. It is about Spiritually Alive to God or spiritually separated from God.
Christianity is Life with God; Unbelief is Death, seperation from God.

If Christianity were Works Based How could you ever work your way into Heaven? That would be a Nightmare knowing that in a moment of anger you could loose your Salvation. That is why Christianity is Faith Based our Faith/Trust in Jesus is our work.

Christian Salvation is based on what Jesus did. With that we are now free to have a relationship with God, The God who Forgives our slip-ups and our short comings, because we Acknowlege that Jesus took our punishment for us. We are after all only people and we are in a sinful condition. 

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? None is good, save one, that is God.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 11:27 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 45)  
 
  47.26 in reply to 47.25  
 
Lets start with the basic premise here, you are saying that a god who created everything in the universe is going to care about one piece of faith while those of us who worship in other ways, such as leading by example as is suggested in the bible that you so love to misquote. 
Prove to me then where it says that Jesus said 'Love Thy Neighbor' and 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' was a conditional requirement of the faith. 

When you're done doing that, tell me where Jesus said go out and slaughter people in my name. While you're at it, tell me where Jesus said that it was alright to discriminate... 

Let me add one condition, try to find it in quotes of Jesus, not from Paul the Prejudice, or the other books that were written well after he was dead... oh wait, let me add more, why was it alright to be gay until Pope Innocent declared it bad in th 8th century. 

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. 

Al Kupone 

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. 

Al Kupone 

Those who don't know hist...
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 11:35 am  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (27 of 45)  
 
  47.27 in reply to 47.26  
 
Hi, 
One God requires One Faith, everything else would be a Lie. 

Why would God ever want to support Lies, by supporting False paths? 

God is the Creator, Giver, and Sustainer of Life, the Bible is Clear, Only in Jesus is there life for mankind. 

To be a True Leader then you will need to be a Christian Leader, because everything else is leading on a Path of Destruction. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 11:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 45)  
 
  47.28 in reply to 47.27  
 
That is a vey good job of avoiding the question, again I ask, where does Jesus say in the bible 'Slaughter the non believer, destroy those who don't agree with me.'? 
This one is so badly overlooked it doesn't even deserve a snappy witicism at the end... or even a stupid one... 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/21/2001 1:19 pm  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (29 of 45)  
 
  47.29 in reply to 47.20  
 
Dear Rowan, 
I'm courious to your statements. Do you consider them true because you think that they are true, or do you just refuse to find out what truth is? I say this because givening a date of the 16th century for confession is not a very intelligent thing to do if you are trying to prove your point. Most people who take your view will give a time line of 6th century . If they are concious of what they are doing they feel that there will be no evidence because this is the "dark ages." This to is faulty, and here is why. 

Origen "Homilies on Leviticus" 244 AD. "... In addition to these there is also a seventh, albiet hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner washes his pillow in tears, when his tears are day and night nourishment, and WHEN HE DOES NOT SHRINK FROM DECLARING HIS SIN TO A PRIEST OF THE LORD and from seeking medicine, after the matter of him ... " 

Seems as if your Irsih monk instituded confession of sins to a priest while he was still a druid, for there were no christians in Ireland in 244 AD. 

As far as the inquisition goes, the same still holds unless you can give me some historical evidence to the contrary. 

Pax 
John 

Edited 6/21/01 4:42:22 PM ET by CORKYBOB 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/21/01 4:44:20 PM ET by CORKYBOB 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/21/2001 1:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 45)  
 
  47.30 in reply to 47.21  
 
Dear David, 
Confessing that Christ is your Lord and savior is quit differant than confessing ones sins. Confessing that Jesus is ones Lord and Savior is an act of faith, where confessing ones sins is an act of humility. When Peter in Acts says one must confess and be baptised, he is not saying that one must confess that Jesus is your Lord and savior. He is saying that one must confess their sins to God. He makes this somewhat clear when in 1 Pt 3:21 he says "This prefigures baptism, which saves us now, ..." Baptism is what is ment by being "born again of water and the Spirit", not baptism of the Spirit. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ones declaration of faith, but to many feel then that they are saved once they have declared their faith thus they have nothing more to do with God for they are saved. This is the meaning of Luthers Salvation through faith alone. This is precissly why he was a heretic. He taught that sin had no baring on whether some one was going to hell or heaven. He placed all salvation on the declaration of faith. He said that one could sin and still go to heaven. He fruther stated that he wanted his flock to sin thus the only thing that they had to hang on to was their faith. Think of it. A whole society that was free to sin what ever sin they wanted to. Think of the implication for society, and indeed it was true. Where Protestantism sprung up, so did caos and civil unrest. This is what the secular inquisition was set up for, to quell the civil unrest. Those that were put to death were the worst fo the worst. The revolutionaries that were hidding behind the veil of religion as an excuse to cause caos. 

Instead of dealing with the past, Christians should deal with the presant. The Holy SPirit has done wonders to the Protestants, leading them from where they began to where they are now. All of this without an ongoing oral tradition. You are Christian not because of your opposition to the Catholic Church, but because of your resemblence to the Catholic Church. 

Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 2:20 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (31 of 45)  
 
  47.31 in reply to 47.28  
 
Jesus does not say to kill the unbeliever. The Bible does tell us that the Unbelievers are Already Spiritually dead, alienated from God.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

The Bible tells us that Christians will be known for their Love.

1 John 4:11 Beloved if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1 John 4:8 He that Loveth not Knoweth not God; for God is Love.

Following Jesus as my example Im not advocating killing anyone. I would have thought I made that point by the first Scripture that I chose and placed on the Start Page for this forum.

If Im still not answering your question it is because Im sure of the point you are making, so please restate your question.






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 2:29 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (32 of 45)  
 
  47.32 in reply to 47.30  
 
Well, Confessing Jesus is paramount to confessing Sin, because it is acknowleging that Jesus is God and that we are sinful and in need of Salvation. 
Confessing our sins does heal us in that it is Identifying behavior that is unpleasing to God and changing from it. Also keep in mind that Confession means to Same Thought to see things the same way God does. This is not limited to Sin, God sees us as His children as Saints. We are also to Confess that God Loves us and that we are Special to Him, this is also Confession. 

Luther like everyone had his good points and bad points. 

And yes, there is Only one Church, Catholic everyone who is a Christian is a part of the only Church of God. Denominations and buildings do not go to Heaven, people do! 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 3:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (33 of 45)  
 
  47.33 in reply to 47.25  
 
This still didn't answer my question. 
<<<Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? None is good, save one, that is God.>>> 

How can be God be good if he lets a serial killer with a change of heart into heaven? For the victims to be in the same place as the killer (theoretically) is absurd. 

<<<If Christianity were Works Based How could you ever work your way into Heaven? That would be a Nightmare knowing that in a moment of anger you could loose your Salvation. That is why Christianity is Faith Based our Faith/Trust in Jesus is our work.>>> 

Intresting. Salvation was pretty much work based from 500 AD to about 150 years ago.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 4:05 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (34 of 45)  
 
  47.34 in reply to 47.33  
 
Which is a worse Sin, to kill a person or to Deny God? 
To Deny God is the worst Sin, because, the Bible says it is the Only Sin for which there is No Forgiveness. 

All People are sinners! 

When we get to heaven we are not going to be against anyone in Heaven, we will be grateful for the Blood of Jesus that has enabled us into heaven. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 4:26 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 45)  
 
  47.35 in reply to 47.34  
 
Denying God hurts no one. Killing someone begins a spider's web of pain and suffering which can devistate a whole community. Several of the school shooting suspects were die-hard Christians. One even opened fire on his Bible study group. 
Does this mean that God doesn't mind when people (or even his own followers) are killed as long as the killer reaches salvation? Then he just saves the murderer and treates the transgressor as though nothing ever happened? 

As if when you die you're not going to remember the face of the man who murdered your spouse or child? You don't forget it in life, there is no reason you'd be released from the thought in death.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/21/2001 5:17 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (36 of 45)  
 
  47.36 in reply to 47.29  
 
Pardon my mistyping but it was 15yh century monks and it is a matter of record in church archives.

Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


Common Scents Perfumes

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 5:56 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (37 of 45)  
 
  47.37 in reply to 47.35  
 
Denying God hurts everyone because to Deny God is to Deny Reality! 
God has Authority over life and death and He has Made arrangements for our spirit and our soul. God has overcome Sin and death. 

In case you havent noticed Everyone Physically Dies, it is just a matter of time. Some people die sooner than others and the methods vary. To die in the scheme of things it is not an abnormal event. 

Christians who have not denied God, Spiritually Live forever. 

There is no harm in Living forever with God. 

Anyone who denies God, will suffer Much Harm for denying God! 

Heaven is not a place to forget, but a place to Forgive!!!




David A. Brown
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 6:08 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (38 of 45)  
 
  47.38 in reply to 47.31  
 
So you are saying that you are morally obligated to act with love, not required to? Or are you saying you need to love all but only when it is convienent? 
Quite simply, you have said, 'So long as you accept Jesus as your lord and savior, you'll go to heaven, regardless of what you were like on earth' (Loosely quoted) You even said murderers and the like will get into heaven for accepted Jesus into thier hearts, yet the kindly old Hebrew down the street or the nice athiest who gives because he feels it is right is going to hell? 

From what you have said on this board, I have to wonder if you are listening to the words of Jesus or the words of popular Christianity... there is a difference. 

Elighten me, I need a new light bulb... 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 6:11 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (39 of 45)  
 
  47.39 in reply to 47.37  
 
Funny... reincarnation was an accepted belief of the church until the renisance as well... does that mean that god changed his mind about recycling? 
Al Kupone
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 6:27 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (40 of 45)  
 
  47.40 in reply to 47.38  
 
Yes you loosely quoted me, so loosely that you misrepresented my quote. I never said it was ok to not love. 
From your reincarnation statement it looks like loose quoting is what you do best. No the Church Never had a Belief in Reincarnation, you can quote me on that! 

To accept Jesus is to Become Born Again this is a New Spiritual Creation. I dont think it is possible to Love apart from Loving God. 

You say that people do all of these loving things to other people, but then if they Hate the God that Gave them Life how loving really are they, not very. 

Actions do not get us into heaven. Confessing Jesus and becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God makes us a child of God. Children of God go to Heaven. 

Children should become like their parents in behavior, children of God should become like Jesus in Love and Behavior. But like all children Christian children of God at times are still disobedient and at times refuse to follow God. 





David A. Brown
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From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 6:46 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (41 of 45)  
 
  47.41 in reply to 47.40  
 
Part 1 - 'No the Church Never had a 
Belief in Reincarnation, you can quote me on that!' 
I'm sorry, you are the weakest link, goodbye. Please attempt to READ your history from now on, the church accepted gays, the church accepted the belief in reincarnation and actually promoted it until 14th century AD, you can look it up yourself as it is under papal doctrin that it was no longer a belief and that the rebirth was through Jesus. 

Part 2 - 'You say that people do all of these loving things to other people, but then if they Hate the God that Gave them Life 
how loving really are they, not very.' 

Funny, I didn't know the Hebrew people hated God, oh well. 

As a side-note, there are still murders in the name of God today, I can pull out many an article from newspapers stating various people murdering because something is 'against God'. The one that comes to mind is a young gay man who was skinned alive in Texas by a Minister and some of his sheep... You can look it up yourself, it is public record. 

Baaaaaa... baaaa... I'm a sheep... I follow Jesus and never question or ponder. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 7:05 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (42 of 45)  
 
  47.42 in reply to 47.41  
 
You have made multiple postings on multiple topics, I have found it difficult to reply to the vast postings. 
If you would like you can create a new topic if you have a specific topic or I can make a Chat room for two people and we can try to Chat. 

I would like to talk to you, but you have made it very difficult with so many allegations and subtopics. 

Obviously Im never going to buy into anything Anti-Christian so please try to keep the posting friendly and we can establish a dialogue. 

It seems to me that you have an agenda or a vendetta or both and are taking it out on this forum. There is no need for that. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 12:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (43 of 45)  
 
  47.43 in reply to 47.37  
 
So, by what you're saying I should be able to go outside, jump off my balcony and fly? Gravity is reality. God is a human speculation. 
God doesn't strike people down or perform any sort of mystical feat that cannot be debunked casually by anyone with common sense. Even "weeping icons" have been proven fakes. Ironically enough, you can see a weeping icon in public, however you'll never see it weep in front of a camera or in front of an objective viewer. 

<<<In case you haven't noticed Everyone Physically Dies, it is just a matter of time. Some people die sooner than others and the methods vary. To die in the scheme of things it is not an abnormal event>>> 

So you justify murder (and murder in the name of God) because its part of "the scheme of things"? So how someone dies doesn't matter? Last I checked you said murder was an act against God. Even your Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill". Its quite ironic how you happen to be anti-abortion but contradict yourself so easily. Abortion is no more part of "the scheme of things" then outright murder or rape against an adult. Talk about hypocrisy! 

<<<There is no harm in Living forever with God. Anyone who denies God, will suffer Much Harm for denying God!>>> 

How could there be no harm in living with a God who, as you yourself have stated, is a vengeful, bitter creature? Seems like living with your God would be similar to living in the same house as Hitler while being a Jew. One wrong word and "poof". 

And what about this "Harm for denying" thing? I seem to be pretty well off. I've yet to see or hear of a person, no matter how "evil", harmed by God. Usually, people who are subject to "acts of god" are only the victims of natural disasters. 

How you do so enjoy using basic mind control techniques in your writing by capitalizing all of the important words which are crucial to your statements! Always words that emphasize and none of which actually need capitalization for grammatical purposes. Nice touch. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  wknight001   6/23/2001 8:52 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (44 of 45)  
 
  47.44 in reply to 47.43  
 
It's often said that 'the world' rejects Christianity, and this is perfectly true. It rejects what it does not understand. I think you can honestly look at the world culture today and see that it holds onto myths, fashion, etc. without regard for the truth but more in regard for whatever is popular, and sounds good to it. 
The 'quick fix' mentality. The 'making fun of and dismissing' mentality. Childish. Popular. Like gradeschool. 

You noted that there are no miracles that cannot be debunked. This is far from true if you had done the slighest study in this area. 

For example, every miracle at Lourdes is researched by the best in medical profession, of all faiths and none. When they pronounce that there they can find no scientific reason for the healing, then it is moved on to the Church for further judgement of the spiritual nature. 

And if you want hard evidence of miracles, witnessed by millions of people, athiests, Moslems, Christians, etc. (rather like Fatima) here you are: 

Zeitun 

http://home.earthlink.net/~wknight001/zei.jpg (picture) 
http://www.missionnet.com/catholic/miracles/zeitun.html 
http://www.zeitun.org/ 

I see evidence of God's intervention, continual, and sustaining, everywhere. This ability to see comes not so much from faith but from a knowledge of reality and how it truly functions. Faith is more a matter of the trust of the heart when you finally get to the part of God that is far more than your small human self could ever comprehend. 

If you want to pursue this further perhaps we should start a new thread. I've had a woman with MS come up to me and speak to me of how she was healed by the laying on of hands. I've seen people get up and walk, who had established, long term, illnesses and disabilities. 

And you -don't- see these things if you don't go to churches, where people have these gifts or if your whole knowledge of it is based on a movie, a stereotype and some gossip. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG
 
  
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   From:  Dr_Shock   6/23/2001 3:02 pm  
To:  wknight001   (45 of 45)  
 
  47.45 in reply to 47.44  
 
Can you give me anything but Christian propaganda links? Probably not. For example, a women here in Ohio keeps saying that the Virgin Mary will show up at such-and-such a place about every 6 months. People flock to these events and all of the Christians see the Virgin (I even went last night for fun).... However none of them can get their stories straight. The Catholic Church currently says she's genuine. 
>>>it's often said that 'the world' rejects Christianity, and this is perfectly true. It rejects what it does not understand. I think you can honestly look at the world culture today and see that it holds onto myths, fashion, etc. without regard for the truth but more in regard for whatever is popular, and sounds good to it.>>> 

...As with Christianity. According to you and others on the board, Christianity is the "quick fix" to everything. 

<<<For example, every miracle at Lourdes is researched by the best in medical profession, of all faiths and none. When they pronounce that there they can find no scientific reason for the healing, then it is moved on to the Church for further judgment of the spiritual nature.>>> 

What you failed to mention is that the "medical professionals" are hired by the church of Rome for just such occasions. Faith has been psychologically proven to heal, although God has nothing to do with it. Spiritual healing, much like the stigmata phenomenon, has been duplicated in lab conditions. 

<<<Faith is more a matter of the trust of the heart when you finally get to the part of God that is far more than your small human self could ever comprehend.>>> 

Unlike you, I'm at least humble enough to understand that its impossible to comprehend God. As usual, you have the "Holier than thou" attitude which is stereotypical of your kind. You talk big but with no evidence to back it up. 

<<<If you want to pursue this further perhaps we should start a new thread. I've had a woman with MS come up to me and speak to me of how she was healed by the laying on of hands. I've seen people get up and walk, who had established, long term, illnesses and disabilities. 

And you -don't- see these things if you don't go to churches, where people have these gifts or if your whole knowledge of it is based on a movie, a stereotype and some gossip.>>> 

I used to be Christian. I attended church for 13 years every Sunday and never saw a miracle. I, myself, have had various medical problems since childhood. I've been to probably 100 different "faith healers" of all different denomonations. Guess what? I still have the same problems I did before. I've even seen someone with supposed "stigmata" who the Catholic Church said was genuine... Until an expert debunked the miracle a week later. 

There is a really good book called "The God Part of the Brain" (Can't remember author right now). Its real interesting and isn't anti-religion at all. Give it a read. It discusses how, psychologically, mankind is "wired" for spiritualism. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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